9/29/2009

Label Me This: Autism, Neurodiversity, Vaccines and the Biomed War

Controversy and contention seem to go hand-in-hand with autism. This isn't a new thing, either. Just think shades of the refrigerator mother day, something that was still in play in the early 90s when autism entered my vocabulary. The first work I ever read on autism was Bettelheim's crap. Needless to say, I have had an abiding aversion to that man and everything he touched since then. To find out he was a fraud, well, that was icing.

Today's controversies and areas of contention regarding autism are more numerous and rankerous than I personally have witnessed since 1993-94 when the word autism came into our lives. We'd had years of experience in dealing with an autistic child, certainly, as my oldest was born in 89. And, yes, as a friend and I were discussing about our children, some come out of the womb autistic. All three of mine did, even if it took time to accurately name it and accept it. There were no controversies other than the refrigerator mom one. No hint of vaccines, no woo treatments. Nothing. There was an absence of information, an absences of practical treatment options and tremendous pessimism regarding outcomes.

Today, there are vaccines and their role in causation, the role of digestive and intestinal issues, the role of gluten and casein intolerances, mitochondrial dysfunctions, the heritability of autism and the role of environmental triggers, regressive autism versus classical autism, standard evidence-based treatment versus non-tested or non-replicated treatments, recovery versus cures, autism as auto-immune disorder, neurodiversity, and disability rights. There's more as well: are we autism parents (NO), are we an autism community, autistic community, autism culture? Let's not even get started on the warrior parents thing. Kathleen has a much better name: worrier parents.

Sigh. As if all this isn't bad enough, there's this need, at least in the online autism-related community, to delineate everyone into two groups: pro-vaccine, pro-neurodiversity, anti-biomed, anti-cure people (said labeling done by anyone belonging to any of those opposite divisions) and anti-vaxxer curebie woo-bodies (by anyone belonging to the opposing side). It is so not that simple, and if I didn't think it were offensive to many of my autistic friends who really aren't all black and white thinking (some are), I'd say it goes a long way to proving the broader autism phenotype that you have all these parents categorizing people into either/ors instead of realizing that there are probably as many positions as there are people.

Every month or so, I end up needing to repost my positions to remind the people who want to mislabel me that the labels they apply I reject. Huh. I try not to label others one-dimensionally, so it'd be nice if people critical of me would at least be critical based on what I've actually said rather than their made-up contentions. I don't care if you disagree with me, I don't care if you hate me, but for goodness sake, do it for a real frakking reason. Man, I want to earn condemnation, so at least get your reasons for it right.

(Gosh, Jonathan, Roger, hell, and Lurker, too, that's a little bit about you as well). So, for all the new readers that my best new friend decided to bring me, here again are my positions.

I posted on GFCFKids; turns out I did actually belong to one of the groups that my best new friend decided to post my information to.

I, too, am sad and disgusted that this woman could make inaccurate and

misleading accusations regarding my behavior and my intentions and then believe

that her behavior is the moral one. I do not lurk on these boards, do not belong

to them, had not heard of them until the thread at LBRB. I do not make fun of

parents and I do not mock them. I do counter misinformation regarding autism,

vaccines, and related woo.


I would welcome readers to look over the thread at LBRB and at my blog at

Countering.

While my information is readily available for any to see, her inducement to

harassment violates the law and has already resulted in one threat against me.

I don't mind criticism, and I don't mind if other's don't find me their cup of

tea, but it ought to be based on something I've really done and not on the lies

of this woman.


KWombles



I received a pleasant response from a member, and I then posted this in response:


Absolutely, I understand that; I wouldn't want my children to have educators

working with them who didn't think they could improve, couldn't make tremendous

progress, and for a small but significant portion, improvement to the point of

functioning at the same level as their neurotypical peers. I have had

psychologists tell me that autistic kids don't get better. They didn't see my

family again.


And I've been careful to acknowledge that vaccines do have adverse effects for

some, as medications do. One can hold onto epidemiological analysis that says

vaccines don't cause autism while acknowledging the personal stories of parents

whose children have had immediate adverse reactions and wind up with an autism

diagnosis. One can also hold onto the idea, based on the research, that there is

not one cause to what we label autism; there are many autisms in that there are

many causes and varying presentations.


I believe vaccination choices are personal choices that should be made based on

non-emotional, evidence based information. I don't condemn parents for choosing

not to vaccinate; I argue against not vaccinating out of unwarranted fear and

misinformation. I am all for more research into making vaccines as safe as

possible, and the posts on my blog demonstrate this repeatedly.


I believe in working hard for our children so that they can achieve their

potential while at the same time working hard to make the world more accepting

of people who are different and disabled. It is possible to conceive of autism

as both a disability for those more severely impacted as my oldest is, and as a

difference, as it would appear that it will ultimately be for my two youngest,

fingers crossed.




It's not a full statement of what my positions are, so if new readers are interested, here are some of the blogs worth reading:

http://counteringageofautism.blogspot.com/2009/08/dialogue-between-roger-kulp-and-me.html

http://counteringageofautism.blogspot.com/2009/08/damn-fools-and-mythical-magical.html

http://counteringageofautism.blogspot.com/2009/07/reflecting-on-neurons-cures-and.html


Bottom line:

Neurodiversity.

Neurodiversity is about accepting people's value and worth is independent of their functional level.

It is about working to help people be accepted and supported.

It is about helping people reach their potential.

It is not inherently anti-cure; if it exists as a movement, it would reject the terminology.

It's about making people's lives better.

Biomed.

Damn stupid name. Everything is biological or medical in nature (even if it's physically related like PT, OT, and speech, it's working to rewire the neuron connections, hence it is biological.

How about evidence-based versus woo/alternative? Better distinction. Way more accurate.

I am for evidence-based practices and minimal to no woo.

Vaccines.

Does not appear to be a cause of autism at the epidemiological level.

Really not interested in arguing with individuals on their personal narrative level.

Adverse reactions do happen.

More research should be done on making vaccines safer, and on making the safest schedule for individuals.

Autism.

Multiple causes. Multiple variations. Not autism, but autisms.

Autism Community/Autism Culture.

I am not an autism mom.

I am not autistic.

I am the loving, accepting mother to three children on the spectrum.

 I am a member of the autism/autistic culture.

I hope that we can form an overarching community where people feel valued and accepted.



UPDATE 08/05/2011 The comments below which mock Jonathan Mitchell are ones I regret I allowed to stand. Because it would be disingenuous to remove them two years laters, I will leave them stand with my apology for not acting then. Apparently, Mr. Mitchell was deeply wounded by these, and I sincerely apologize for any role I played in that hurt.

33 comments:

jonathan said...

Kim: It is strange that you of all people would whine about the Bettleheim era, when it is you and the rest of the ND crowd who is trying to bring it back. Your buddy Clay has constantly claimed that I learned to hate myself at my mother's knee and he blames my "domineering" mother for all that is wrong with me psychologically and my life. Basically that is the position that most ND's have-that any pro-cure autistic only has that position because his/her mother taught them to hate themselves. I know about this first hand, because Unlike you and your children, my mother and I actually lived through the Bettleheim era, where I spent ten years in psychoanalysis and had to deal with these issues first hand.

If harassment over the internet were against the law as you say and that law were enforced, I am guessing Clay Adams would be serving about 20 years in prison right now.

KWombles said...

I'm not whining, Jonathan. Nor am I trying to bring back the era of the refrigerator mom as an explanation of why autism occurs. But you sure do have a way of reinforcing the very points I am trying to make.

Do you realize self-hatred has nothing to do with autism? Just as I realize that your tendency to be an ass has nothing to do with autism?

As for psychoanalysis, if you really saw a Freudian or neo-Freudian, well, let's just say I am not an admirer of Freud.

I'm pretty sure that the offense isn't punishable with 20 years. Ask him to stop. And it isn't much different from what you're doing to Dawson, is it? Seems to me, having watched some of ya'll's exchanges, that you egg him on; it's a reciprocal thing.

I'll say it again, as I've said before, and elsewhere: autism is not your biggest problem. By far. It isn't responsible for everything wrong with your life. It's not. Attitude and disposition go a long way to causing your problems, and that ain't autism.


Sometimes an ass is just an ass, and sometimes a miserable person is miserable because that's what he or she wants.

I recommend Seligman's Learned Optimism. Learning about your attribution style and ways of altering it to a more positive, productive one might help you quite a bit. If you're unhappy, you figure out why (I don't mean blaming autism), and you take concrete steps to get around your obstacles. Sometimes that means changing goals. Sometimes it means making a conscious decision to not be an ass to everyone around you.

kathleen said...

A mother teaching a child to hate themselves is not the refrigerator mother I was informed of. I was told it was a mother who had withdrawn emotion/love/touch/all of herself from her child.
Accepting that your child has autism-accepting that this is an inherent part of this child/person/human being-and working with that person to help them achieve all that they possibly can-loving them supporting them-trying to make the world a more accepting place..how does that relate to Bettleheim? Telling a parent who instead of seeing a full person-only the autism..a parent who says that they will stop at nothing to "recover" their child-including the use of dangerous methods/dubious methods...that becomes about the parent-because they don't "see" the child. I don't believe that these parents hate their children-I believe that many have been deceived and frightened.
I have three children on the spectrum-they are all very different from each other. I could not for a moment fathom lumping them into a group and saying they needed to be "cured"-because I think-"cured of what?" I could not for a moment fathom that they needed to be "recovered"-because they are right in front of me. Do they have disabilities-absolutely. That is what we work on-that is where I help them. They are trying to work there way around a world that can at times be very confusing. Does that make them less? No. I never want my children to think themselves somehow less or broken because of the way that they are. They know that they are different-they struggle with that. It is not easy for them. They work very hard-because they are in a world that doesn't have a place for them. Yet. So what should one do...subject their kids to some pretty horrifying treatments (nicotine patches-please..I.V. cheleation?) in order to "fix" them. Or does one treat them like any human being deserves to be treated-with dignity and respect..working with them, getting them the services that they need, fighting to make the world a better more accepting and accomodating place for them. I ask how in the world this is like Bettleheim?
I am not sure if you were saying that you spent 10 years in psychoanalysis because of Bettleheims theory-or because your mother did indeed teach you to hate yourself. Either way, I am sorry. If it was the latter, I am especially sorry because no child deserves to be treated that way.EVER.
.

NightStorm The Aspiewolf said...

@Kim- I keep coming back to your blog because I love your words. You to me, remind me of Hanai, my character's caregiver. Strong, honest and supporting. I admire those in people.

@Jonathan- As much the shit-throwning between you and Clay is kinda amusing but pretty juvinelle. I see no reason to dwell in the self-hate, all it lead for me is sucidal drepression and no motivation. I am sure the self-hate has purpose but in the end it's only going to destroy you.

Roger Kulp said...

I think there are too many fundamental differences between neurodiversity and those on the other side. You will notice I did not say "pro cure" or antivaxers.I am not either.These people have some valuable information to offer,but you have to sort the good stuff out from the rest,sort of like panning for gold.

Neurodiversity is about accepting people's value and worth is independent of their functional level.

It is about working to help people be accepted and supported.


I call buls**t on that.

That may be one of the supposed goals of neurodiversity,but in order to accept any of the "principles" of neuroudiversity you have to accept that is that you ARE your autism. Your autism is not a disease you have,it is YOU.

That is what I see as the big lie of neurodiversity.I don't see this in other diseases of that involve the brain,like epilepsy,or Cerebral Palsy,at least not to the extent you do with autism.

Just because I think my life would be better if I wasn't excessively stimming all the time,or if I didn't want to spend all day bashing my head with a board,or if I could sit down at a computer and write something intelligent. DOES NOT MEAN I AM FILLED WITH SELF HATRED!!!!

Autism is as much about what you do as what you think.

The simple fact I am here typing this,while listening to the 1964 Georg Solti Mahler "Titan",is because I have been on high doses of stuff like omega fish oil,MB12(Yes revitaPOPs.I just started today.),CoQ10,and more.The sad fact is most doctors who rely on the "peer reviewed" literature neurodiversity touts as holy gospel, still dope autistics up with SSRIs,and sadly say this behavior is untreatable.Autism is a disease. Like many diseases,you do not "cure" it.You treat it,and manage it.

You did not answer my question from the other day.Do you think pharmaceutical companies do or do not control what gets published in "peer reviewed" literature ?

Corina Becker said...

So Jonathon, one individual says something, and you assume that the entire ND population believes in the same thing?

Also, I believe that the point that Clay was trying to make is that your attitude towards autism comes from your experiences and the information you were given. The Nurturing part of your development, in other words. I personally don't have any speculations as to who exactly gave you the impressions that influenced your attitude, but they certainly had quite the impression on you.

And as kathleen states, the refrigerator mother is not a teaching to hate themselves, but is a mother that withholds affection and interaction, supposedly causing autism. I know that as an ND, I don't believe that autism is psychological.

So Jonathan, please refrain from generalizing people whom you haven't even met to make those sorts of assumptions. And please keep your personal experiences dealing with a few from making such a broad judgment on all of us.

It would kind of like if I declared that all Americans are gun-toting maniacs (which, as I know, totally is not true) based on only a few news articles and only meeting a few Americans.

KWombles said...

Roger,

I did too answer your question; go back and read it.

Diseases are not stagnant processes; they get worse without treatment. If autism was a disease process, it appears to have been set in place by birth. You do not get worse; it is not neurodegenerative.

Your comment here abundantly proves the point I'm trying to make: you keep arguing against things I either have not said at all or using it as a launching pad to continue your assault against other's definitions of neurodiversity.

Those are my definitions of neurodiversity; it is what I work every day to promote.

Like it or not, we are our neural wiring. When it goes haywire, it is still us. The idea of a static I is not real. We change by the moment. It doesn't mean that when something in our neural makeup is malfunctioning that we don't treat it. It means that we acknowledge that our conceptio of who we are is largely a construction of our frontal lobe and that much of what we do is beneath our executive functioning and conscious awareness. You may not be only your autism, it may not be the totally of who you are, but it is a fundamental integral part of you are. It doesn't mean that you can't look at the specific areas where your thoughts, behaviors or functional levels impede what you would like to accomplish.

I am seriously tired of people misconstruing acceptance with doing nothing. I have issues, we all do, and I work everyday to minimize the impact those issues have on my ability to carry out my goals. My life is not always easy, and some days are hard, hard to get through physically, hard to get through with grace. But still I try, and I do so because I know that there are people who hurt worse, who feel worse, and yet they get up and do what they feel to be impossible to do.

I had one grandmother who dealt with every adversity, every blow, with such grace, dignity and laughter. I had another who reveled in her misery and never quit bitching, never tried to make her life better.

Now, I like to bitch, who doesn't? But I by God try to handle the world the way that first grandmother did. With dignity. With grace. With laughter.

I will say this again, and I will globalize it: the biggest problem holding many back in the autism-related culture has not a damn thing to do with autism. It has to do with a person's perception of himself and his place in the world. In short, his explanatory or attribution style. This fundamentally shapes the way we face our lives and whether we find them to be of value.

Roger, I value you as a human being. I am, while often frustrated with you, always happy to see you. Jonathan, same goes. I figure you're engaging in dialogue, and maybe it lessens the overwhelming loneliness that life can sometime bring us. I hope it does. I hope that posting here, even to argue, provides fulfillment of a need and makes your day a little brighter. It's all about the dopamine. And dopamine and connections with others are good things.

KWombles said...

Nightstorm,

Thank you. ((( ))) That's sweet of you to say. I enjoy reading your blog. You might take the opportunity, both you and Corina, to point out to Jonathan that contrary to his assertion that he is one of the few autistics to write fiction, both of you do.

I am sure there are many more who do.

NightStorm The Aspiewolf said...

If Jonanthan is interested one of fiction pieces is in Prism*Song he is free to read it.

Sirenity said...

Wonderfully written, again Kim! Hugs and laugher,

Clay said...
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Clay said...

Ooooh! Jonathan just posted a blog about Ari, and also mentioned me. I had previously posted a comment on his blog, (which he didn't publish, of course), and only incidentally mentioned that the proper spelling of a word was "kowtow", rather than "cowtow". I mean, hell, it's a Chinese word that has nothing to do with cows! Well, anyway, I posted a comment on his latest blog, and since he probably won't publish it, I'll do it here.


Wow, Jon, I'm impressed! There was only one misspelling in all of that, (crapola), and you properly capitalized all proper names! This is quite an improvement over your previous work, but if I may, I would like to point out just one error in logic. You and I, for instance, have a variety of different capabilities, therefore, we are diverse in our neurological capacities. No doubt, there must be something, you can do better than I can, and so this is not about saying either of us is better than the other, but the fact remains that neurodiversity exists, whether you want it to or not, whether you agree with it or not.

I'm sorry if that undermines your raison d'etre, but there it is, an immutable fact.

Clay said...

You'll never believe this, but Johnny Mathis stopped by, and insisted on helping me rework the lyrics to his old song, in honor of Mitchell. We had a couple of jays, then started in:


Look at me,
I'm as hopeless as the Chinese peasantry.
And I feel like I'm singing way too loud,
I ought to be banned,
I'm autistic, and I can't pound sand.

Walk my way,
And a thousand violins begin to play
The saddest song you'll ever know,
That music I hear,
I'm autistic, I must make that clear.

You can say that I should lead my own life,
But that's just what I don't want to do.
Don't you notice how hopelessly I'm lost,
I can't tie my own shoe!

On my own,
Will I wander through this hellish world alone,
Never knowing my right foot from my left,
My face from my bum,
I'm autistic, that's why I'm so glum.

I'm autistic, that's why I'm so glum.

Sadderbutwisergirl said...

@Clay: I personally am of the belief that while feeding the trolls is unacceptable, it can be enjoyable to have a little fun at their expense every once in a while. I can understand your enjoyment of all your Jonathan Mitchell song parodies that you put up in one post. However, if it's long and drawn out (that is, done repeatedly), it can lead to a full-blown flame war. In a flame war, nobody wins. It's just two people getting all pissed at each other, sending insults back and forth, and getting nowhere.

Foresam said...
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Foresam said...
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KWombles said...

Well, hell, Lurker, you, too, might as well post here. God knows you probably are dying to say something.

Clay, I consider you a dear friend, but it's probably best to give Jonathan a break. Maybe you've got a parody in you over Best. Or something over poop. Or Jenny McCarthy. Or Autism Speaks.

It's an interesting crowd here, and I'd rather not have to delete people's comments because a dialogue can be a wonderful thing. So, how about we actually try that?

Best, the only reason I am not deleting you immediately is because I haven't deleted Clay or Jonathan, and I can see Jonathan using that to say I'm a hypocrite. Of course, it's my blog, so I can delete whom I please.

And in fairness to Lurker, I admit that what Jonathan said in one of his posts is damn near identical to what Lurker said to a commenter here (and which I deleted).

But this is a warning, one I don't want to have to give. SBWG is right and wise beyond her years.

Surely there is something of depth that can be said here between proponents of the acceptance of people's value and worth and those who argue that neurodiversity is in fact something sinister and dark.

Now, that probably isn't going to come from Best, nor Lurker for that matter, but I have higher hopes for Roger and Jonathan. And I know Clay can set his biting wit aside and engage them earnestly.

Best, if you want to converse and do so civily, you are welcome to post. But if you keep up with the neuroinsanity bullshit, I will delete your posts. There is only so much ugliness I will deal with in a day. And I'm past my quota.

NightStorm The Aspiewolf said...

Neuroinsanity is a cult of brainwashing that was invented by government mind control agents. You were their easiest victim.

LOL

I wonder if you can insert images in here because I totally need the Awesome!face of 4chan here.

ROFLCOPTER 8D

Foresam said...
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KWombles said...

Best,

I'll give you points for not being threatening. That's all.

If you're just going to repeat the same old arguments, I am not sure what you can contribute that's meaningful to the conversation, and I've already told you I'm at my quota.

Foresam said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Corina Becker said...

Also, Kim, Mr. Best is a very good example of a commenter who does not actually read and consider what people have written.

I don't think I need to go through the actual facts regarding Asperger, the man whom Asperger's Syndrome is named after, or Mr. Best's views of neurodiversity.

Clay said...

In an email awhile ago, Kim asked me to repost this, so I will. It's an attempt to show the newbies what my purpose has been regarding Jonathan, in case they didn't see it last month:

KWombles said:
"very funny, although Mitchell would not think so. :-)"

Thanks, it was kinda fun, but lest anyone think my purpose is (or has been) just to yank Mitchell's chain or piss him off, let me disabuse him (and others), of that misconception.

I feel compassion for him, because I have experienced many of the same difficulties that he has, being teased, mocked, made fun of by older sisters and schoolmates, misunderstood by teachers, (because in my case, they really had no idea what was "wrong" with me), being set-up, lied to and lied about by co-workers, losing jobs for various misunderstandings and idiosycracies, and yes, even experiencing the loneliness that comes from not being able to "connect" with others, as NTs do so naturally.

I have compassion for him, despite the fact that he has none for me, because I'm one of those "high-functioning Aspies" who never even figured out how I was "different" until I was 53. It makes no difference that I was married, had kids, because all that came to naught. He could have done the same, (and might have had the same results), had his mother not told him that such things as marriage were out of the question for him.

Simply because my problems were not as "pronounced" as his, I spent all those years banging my head against a wall I didn't even know existed, because "Asperger's" hadn't been put in the book yet, and my first clue was seeing Jerry Newport (today's his birthday!) on "60 Minutes" in May '96.

I have compassion for him, because I understand the problem of "mothers". Mine happened to be totally oblivious to me or my problems. She was busy going out, getting drunk after a hard day working in a factory, and to be blunt, screwing around. She often dragged me to the beergardens, using me as "bait", because I was such a cute little dickens. ;-) But I didn't like it there, and fought to stay home to watch "Dobie Gillis" or some such. She often didn't cook supper before going out, and there was very little food I could eat, as I didn't cook, (and had strict orders not to touch the stove). I was severely malnourished between the ages of 10 and 15, when I finally left her after an argument in a bar, and went to my father's home instead.

She was a paranoid, domineering, hateful person who never missed a chance to dis my father to me, as she was bitter over him leaving her for another woman when I was 3. I threw out all her baggage just before I turned 15.

So yeah, mothers can be a trip. Worse, they can imprint us with some very self-defeating ideas. It's understandable, that Mitchell's mother might want to shelter him, protect him from harm, provide for him whenever he can't provide for himself. That's a fine thing, a laudable intention, but can be taken to extremes. There's only a small difference between "mothering" and "smothering", and it is my belief that his hapless attitude toward autism is the summation of all that she has imprinted on him.

I feel for ya, Jon, I really do.
August 19, 2009 2:55 PM

Nightstorm, SBWG, I like you both. I enjoy your writings and look forward to all that you will contribute to our cause. I will say that I think you underestimate me, if you think I'm merely being "juvenile" or simply engaging in a flame war. I've never considered Jonathan as a "troll", he truly isn't. I've never questioned his Dx, although he questions mine, and Ari's, and anyone else who can out-think him. I am sorry if anyone thinks this is chauvinistic, but it really is a "guy thing". I have a purpose in what I'm doing, and explaining it would kind of defeat that, since he would also read it here. I'm actually trying to help him, so please, don't interfere.

As for Best, his comments are always nonsense, and beneath contempt. I do not reply to him.

Clay said...

KWombles said"
Maybe you've got a parody in you over Best.

I guess you missed it, a couple of weeks ago, I came up with one, and sent it to his blog. The damn fool actually published it, until the next day, when I replied to his response. This was sent to Timelord's blog:


Hey, where's the response to Best's "Direct Order" to Mike Mullen, the Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff? I just posted this reply to Best on his blog, but it probably won't get printed there, so...


They're coming to take you away, ha-ha,
They're coming to take you away, hee-hee.
They'll put you in a padded cell,
And you will think that you're in Hell,
And piss on the wall is the only smell
You'll find - unless you kiss your ass,
Your incredibly bigoted ass.
September 16, 2009 6:24 PM

Timelord said...

LOL Clay! I've been busy and I haven't had the chance to update. I know the vid's there.
September 16, 2009 10:48 PM

Clay said...

That knucklehead went ahead and printed it, and wrote a reply suggesting that if millions all demanded that Mullen do what he ordered him to, then "public opinion" would get it done.

I wrote in reply (as Jake):
You may think you have "millions" in your audience, but if you check your site counter and it fails to verify that, you should seriously consider committing yourself. Don't wait until it becomes an issue of involuntary commitment. Word to the wise...oh, who am I kidding?
September 17, 2009 7:23 AM

(And no, my version of the song really isn't complete, I kinda lost interest, because I just didn't wanna waste any more time with him.)

Cube Demon said...

Clay, I feel sorry for Mitchell as well. I feel sorry for Billy as well. I think they both need help. Billy is 25-26 so he is closer to my age. I am 30. I understand what my generation is like. I hate to say this but my generation is very narcisstic to tell you to truth. This is where Billy is getting these crapola ideas from.

Best on the other hand like you say Clay is beneath contempt.

Personally, I think Best should be made to apologize to Alyric's family for his sexual line about Alyric.

KWombles said...

Clay, I did indeed miss it as I do not read Best's blog.

Best,

While I bear you no personal animosity, you go about the web trying your damndedest to make other people's lives worse, not better. You disparage and harass those who do not follow your line of autism/mercury/governmental conspiracies. You bully and you intimidate. And just because you do not do it in every single post, you cause distress or anger when a post of yours is seen. Even when you are civil in tone, you are unreasonable in your intent.

Neurodiversity is not a plot created by the government and autism is not mercury poisoning. Mercury poisoning is.

I will be deleting your comments, as your presence here makes some of my commenters uncomfortable based on their history with you, and personally, based on our prior experience with your bullying, I see no reason to have to dialogue with you when you believe in things that are not reality based and harass and threaten those who disagree with you.


Jonathan,

Clay asserts his reason in all this is to make you reconsider your positions about autism, about yourself.

I know from reading you that you would want your autism removed from you. That you believe this would cure all that is wrong in your life. Yet you assert that autism is not a part of you, of who you are. I would agree it is not all of you. So, do you see any of your problems, to include personality traits and outlook that are not related to autism?

What about you is Jonathan and what about you is autism?

KWombles said...

Best,

Last time I'm going to respond to your posts, which by the way, I made the last bunch go poof as if they had never been here.

I would explain to my students that where it becomes readily apparent that reasoned debate based on common goals of understanding and coalition building are not possible, there is no point in continuing the discussion.

Your goals are counter to mine; your reasoning not based on any facts at hand. You have shown yourself to be a hatemonger who delights in threatening speech. You appear to have no laudable goals. Therefore, your posts will be deleted. Period. It's my blog, and it's my rules.

:-)

Clay said...

Jonathan,

I think you may be ready for this. I wish to engage with you, not in rancorous debate, but in conversation. You really need not fear me, in fact I'm a calm, reasonable, and mature man. I do wish to impress on you that those of us Dxd as Asperger's are every bit as disadvantaged socially as are those Dxd as classical autistic. To that end, I will publicly admit this:

Throughout elementary school, I was often teased or provoked to fight, for reasons that were mysterious to me. During these confrontations, I guess my blood pressure would soar, as my legs would become very "jumpy", sorry I can't describe it better than that. I would want to ask what the problem was, to reason it out, but words would fail me, because during those "in your face" occasions, I couldn't even think! Many's the time I walked home from school, face hot with shame and embarrassment, thinking such things as, "A coward dies a thousand deaths, a hero dies but once." Even a couple of girls gave me a fat lip, for reasons I didn't understand, and so could not engage.

In fact, I've only voluntarily gotten into one fight in my life, in 7th grade, when one day before school, my friend came over to tell me that someone had let the air out of my bicycle tires, and pointed him out. I didn't even know him, (it turns out that he had been in my 6th grade class, but I hadn't noticed him), and I wanted to know why he would do that. I went and asked him, but he was belligerent, challenging me to a fight after school. Now, I didn't want to worry about it all day, and I especially didn't want to "chicken out", as I expected I would do after worrying about it all day, and this time I understood what the "point" was, so I replied, "Or we can do it right now!", and I punched him in the nose. He countered with a punch to my belly, (which effectively ended my part of it), while all the kids around started yelling. Fortunately, a teacher heard the din, and stuck his head out a window and said, "You two get in here right now!" He tried to mediate, and I, for some stupid reason, started crying, and so I don't remember much more about that conversation. I do know that this guy never gave me another problem.

Does this sound anything like your experiences? Can you admit that Asperger's isn't so different than classical autism? Can you see the error in your thinking, in your above comment that misconstrues what I've said about your mother as casting her as a "refrigerator mother"? I've never thought she was "cold and distant", but rather "smothering and manipulative", impressing on you a feeling of inferiority and failure to meet her standards for acceptance of you as you are. For that, I commiserate with you, I know the feeling.

As you know, my own mother was so bad, that I had to leave her, as a matter of survival. Fortunately, I had an option, to live with my father instead. Your circumstances were different, and your survival required you to stay.

As Kim said, I urge you to reconsider your positions about autism, and especially about yourself. There is room for growth, on both counts.

NightStorm The Aspiewolf said...

I figured the stuff between you and Jon has a history.

Does this sound anything like your experiences? Can you admit that Asperger's isn't so different than classical autism?

I was bully and enabler a lot in school, it was the result of being tormented all through elementry and junior high that became very mean and nasty to people. I didn't soften up until out of high school, even now I am still a misanthropic asshole. Autism is Autism no matter what lable you throw on it.

Also to Kim, Please blog to other members here about the Columbus Ohio AutSpks protest. I can't particpate because of my job, but I want to spread this around. Also this link has fun little meme for everyone to do and I would love to see some people give a shot.
www.prismsong.livejournal.com

Also, will more people comment on my blog if I moved it to BlogSpot. You can comment under anon you know.

Chromesthesia said...

I comment on your blog...

KWombles said...

Nightstorm,

Will do on the blog post for you.

Anonymous posting shows disabled at your site, and with only the OpenID and LJ account for posting options, I think it probably does limit comments. Also, it may not be clear what folks need to click on to comment. You could try running a blogspot blog for awhile, duplicating your posts on both formats and see which readers prefer.

:-)

Lindsay said...

Hi, Kim. My mother has also mentioned hearing a few vestiges of the Bettelheim refrigerator-mother nonsense, when I was being evaluated in the late 1980s. (I was born in 1984, diagnosed at age 5, but my mom knew I was different from birth, and did try to talk about it with pediatricians when I was a toddler, but they mostly dismissed her questions as a new mother's worries.) She knew it was crap as soon as she heard it.

KWombles said...

We'll have to hope that today's parents who hear the equivalent with the vaccines and know there was no adverse reaction are as easily able to shake it off. :-)